Ethanol vs Hybrids
There are many reasons why Toyota is a better automaker than GM, and many reasons why Toyota is now the largest automaker in the world. For starters, Toyota listens to their customers, where GM seems to ignore them. Toyota continually refines a successful formula, where GM lets it stagnate. Not to mention the fact that Toyota has been building rock solid vehicles for years, and GM has only started to do so recently.
But today we’ll look at an issue that I think really sums up the Toyota vs GM situation, and shows why Toyota is successful, and GM, not so much.
In case it isn’t obvious, this little pictures explains in beautiful simplicity why Toyota is smarter than GM. Flex-fuel ( ethanol ) vs Hybrid Synergy Drive. For years now, Toyota has been concentrating on hybrids that get fantastic gas mileage. They are spreading the technology through their lineup steadily – they currently offer 5 hybrid models by my count. In fact, Toyota plans to have a 100% hybrid penetration rate by 2020 – that means that every Toyota sold will have a hybrid powertrain.
GM, on the other hand, has decided to mostly stay out of the hybrid game, and focus on making their vehicles ethanol-ready. Ethanol ( E85 ) is a gas / corn blend that is 85% corn, and just 15% gasoline. The goal of ethanol is to reduce dependence on foreign oil, and reduce costs to consumers. A different strategy than Toyota, for sure, but is it that much worse.
The “Benefits” of Ethanol
Well, yes, absolutely, no question at all. See, there are a lot of problems with ethanol. For one, there’s no official consensus that E85 is net energy positive. That is, it’s not certain that turning corn into gasoline actually creates more usable energy than is used in the actual creation. It is very possible that we are burning more energy than is created – not exactly a step forward, is it?
Even if we make the rather lofty assumption that this is not the case, and that ethanol is energy efficient, it still doesn’t make sense. Why? Because there is no real, “right now” benefit to the consumer. Vehicles that are E85 ready, or “flex-fuel” capable, get approximately 25% worse gas mileage when running on the stuff, than when they run on regular gas. That is because there is less overall energy in E85 fuel. So instead of getting, say 14 mpg city, 20 mpg , you’ll see something closer to 10 mpg city / 15 mpg highway. This is, of course, in a large SUV – something that certain doesn’t need to get worse fuel economy.
There aren’t a whole lot of gas stations that sell E85, at least away from the Midwest. The few that are around my area, actually charge more for E85 than for regular 87 octane. So not only do you pay more at the pump, you get worse gas mileage. So, E85 costs more on two fronts – not exactly my idea of fun. Not only is there a lack of a “right now” benefit, there’s a very real penalty. I’d like to help the environment too, but at a cost of 25%+ more for fuel? I’m not interested.
The Benefits of a Hybrid
On the other side of the fence, Toyota is offering the Hybrid Synergy Drive rather than flex-fuel vehicles. For simple comparison’s sake, we’ll look at the Camry vs the Camry Hybrid. The new 2008 EPA ratings for the Camry are 21 mpg city / 30 mpg highway. The Camry Hybrid? 33 mpg city / 34 mpg highway. Once you swallow the price increase, there is a very tangible, “right now” benefit to driving a hybrid – a 30% increase in fuel economy, and a 30% smaller fuel bill. Not only that, I don’t need to pay extra for special fuel, and I don’t need to hunt around for a gas station that offers it. Ultimately, you get paid to do less damage to the environment.
At the end of the day
What it all comes down to is this. GM is asking you to spend more money to *possibly* help the environment and the country. Toyota is asking you to spend less to *definitely* help the environment and the country. Which one would you choose?
Popularity: 3% [?]
i agree with the idea of ethanol but, as you say, *possibly* helping the environment isn’t enough. i also see problems with hybrids due to their battery production process. they travel all over the world and the area that make the internals is completely wiped out of any naturl resources due to the facilities. However, i still see a lot of potential and good in the hybrids over the enthanol.
THIS IS TRUE. I SEEN VARIOUS SIMILARITIES WITH THE THE HYDROGEN TREND FROM CAR COMPANIES. THE H-ICE OR HYDROGEN INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENEGINE VS. HYDROGEN FUEL CELL CARS.
LIKE THE RX8 RUNNING ON H-ICE AND HONDA’S FCX V3 THE FUEL CELL CAR EXPERIMENT. BOTH HAVE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES. FOR ME I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE CAR COMPANIES ARE GONING TO DO. THEIR’S JUST SO MANY POSSIBLE RENEWABLE RESOURCES.
SO YOU HAVE ENTHANOL, HYBRIDS, HYDROGEN COMBUSTION, FUEL CELL AND ELECTRIC CARS. THE FUTURE IS HERE, LET’S TAKE THIS ADVANTAGE AND FREE OURSELVES FROM THE GRASPS OF FOSSIL FUELS. WE CAN DO IT, IF WE REALLY WANT TO. DON’T GET E WRONG, HYBRIDS IS A VERY GOOD START, THIS WILL BE THE CROWBAR THAT WILL PRY AMERICA AWAY FROM GAS COMPANIES. SLOWLY BUT SURELY. THIS WILL TAKE SOME TIME.
It will take time, but I feel that we’re running short on time. Whether you believe the global warming and/or peak oil horror stories or not, the bottom line is that gas is getting more expensive by the day… at some point it’s going to cause a massive shift in people’s buying habits… hopefully sooner rather than later….
The newer hybrids / electric / hydrogen cars cannot come soon enough.
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT, IN FACT A BUDDY OF MINE I USED TO WORK WITH TOLD ME ABOUT LOCALS IN MY AREA THAT HAVE A EV ORGANIZATION THAT’S COMPRISED OF A FEW MAYBE ABOUT 12 PEOPLE AND THEY CONVERT ANY GASOLINE POWERED CAR INTO ALL ELECTRIC. SO THEIR ARE SOME SMALL SOLUTIONS BESIDES WAITING ARE CAR COMPANIES HAVING TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THE CONSUMER. BUT SEEING COMPANIES LIKE TESLA IT LETS ME KNOW THAT SOMEONE’S GETTING THE MESSAGE. HONDA, TOYODA, AND MERCEDES I SEEN SO FAR ARE ACTUALLY DOING THEIR PART IN DEVELOPING RENEWABLE ENERGY CARS IN THE HYDROGEN SECTOR. THE POTIENTAL IS THERE FOR HYDROGEN, NOW IT’S JUST LOCATION LOCATION, LOCATION. I MEAN THE STATIONS NEED FOR THESE HYDROGEN CARS MUST BE IN PLACE, WHICH MAJORITY OF THE GAS STATION DON’T HAVE ONE. THAT’S ONE HURTLE THEY MUST OVERCOME.
PERSONNALLY I CARE ABOUT THE ENVIORMENT AND I BELIEVE THAT FOSSIL FUELS, NOT ONLY JUST CARS BUT FACTORIES AND OTHER SOURCES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE GREEN HOUSE GASES. EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A GAS EFFIECENT CAR, I FEEL THAT I’M NOT DOING ENOUGH. SO FAR THE ELECTRIC CAR AND FUEL CELL CAR HAVE MY VOTE. MAINLY BECAUSE THEY USE ELECTRIC MOTORS, WHICH IN FACT HAS BETTER LOW END TORQUE AND COULD POSSIBLY CLIMB TO 12000 RPMS EASY DEPENDING ON THE TYPE OF MOTOR. I CAN CHARGE THE CAR FROM HOME WITHOUT EVER STOPPING AT A GAS STATION AND THEY EMITT ZERO POLUTIONS. SO IN TURN I HELP THE ENVIORMENT AND SAVE MYSELF TIME AND MONEY.
Yup, the electric car has a very bright future. Even though most of our electric power comes from coal, it’s still more efficient than burning gasoline. And going forward, I think we’ll see more solar-power electricity being generated, and perhaps more nuclear.
I could survive 90% of the time with an electric car and a 100 mile range. Only rarely do I go further than that.. and for those trips I could have a car with a small gasoline engine.
Anyone think of hybrid cars that run off ethanol instead of reg. gas? No dependancy on forign oil/ fossil fuel. In the article it says ethanol has a negative 25% fuel economy, while hybrid has a positive 30% in fuel economy. 30%-25%=5% higher mpg while reducing pollution and is renewable energy. I like the idea of electric cars but I travel farther than 100 miles plus you would have to add charge time in. It would suck to forget to charge your car; another excuse to be late for work?
That’s another perspective, theman. The problem with an ethanol-consuming hybrid is this – you would basically end up paying the hybrid price premium, while getting about the same mileage as a non-hybrid. The only “benefit” is that you are burning ethanol instead of regular gasoline. I personally wouldn’t be interested in this solution – would anyone else?
After reading about other options such as fuel cells and all electric cars; I think all electric will be the most promising. (If people get over the negative stereotype)
Facts about all electric-
Positive-
1. NiMH batteries have higher energy density and may deliver up to 200 km (120 miles) of range.
2. General Motors announced a version of its “Magne Charge” system which could recharge NiMH batteries in about ten minutes.
3. No pollution while driving.
4. No need for gas or ethanol.
5. Less moving parts such as pistons, crank shaft, ect.
6. In real world use, some fleet Toyota RAV4 EVs, using NiMH batteries, have exceeded 100,000 miles.
Negative-
1. NiMH batteries are still expensive. ($1500-$20,000)
2. Will wide use of electric cars make energy prices go up (supply & demand)?
3. Electric plant creates energy using coal and other non-renewable resources.
4. What happens to the millions of gas station? Electric stations?
5. What do we do with old batteries?
With faced with a choice of hybrid or ethanol, I would say hybrid is better. But I think all electric is more promising than both.
Leroy Brown- I think it comes down to money vs. clean enviroment. The hybrid is the middle ground right now; Save money at the pump and reduce pollution a little bit. On the other hand hybrid w/ethonal, spend about the same at the pump help stop pollution more. But better yet we can skip the whole step of adding ethonal to all the pumps right now and go straight to electric. Just my opinion…
Nope, not me. I like the idea of a Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engine hybrid. Which has already been demostrated with a Toyoda Hybrid Prius. Although it has similar drawbacks it’s the closest to zero emissions. Plus
To show how much technology has changed, Tesla Motors electric sports car can get 246 miles on a charge. The main issue seems to be the price, an average consumer can’t afford to buy a 100,000 car to achieve O emissions. However it will open up a new market and hopfully more companies will get involved and the more involved the lower the cost would be to the consumer. Honda has already worked on the FCX car for 7 years, steadly they are improving the effecincy of the FCX. Also they plan on leasing cars out into commerical market to help drive down the cost. Fuel Cell cars might be a alternative, again cost is a big issue and that will take time. But for now it looks as though the market is aimming for better performance better efficent hybrids. Audi might be jumping on the band wagon too. Volvo has arleady designed a regenerating hybrid drivetrain that will recharge the batteries while the car is in motion.
I’m hoping that technology will allow my next car to plug in to an electric socket. Whether it’s a full electric car, or a setup similar to the Chevy Volt concept, who knows. I generally drive <40 miles per day, so even a 100 mile range would be fine for me, most of the time. Of course, with electric only, I’d need a backup car for long trips, though my wife’s car would be fine for that.
You’re right about electric cars using mainly non renewable energy sources right now. The good thing is that I think it will be easier / more feasible to convert household electric from coal today to solar in the near future. Solar panels are still expensive, but getting more reasonable all the time. Within a few years they may be within the average person’s reach financially. Think how great that would be – never have to visit a gas station, and never emit a bit of pollution, without sacrificing your mobility.
So this all sounds really nice
but where else in the world are we seeing electic hybrid models?
not much of any where
ethanol?
all over the place
germany
brazil
the list goes on
also
you keep assuming corn is the only thing that you can make ethanol out of
how bout these other nifty crops?
Cattails (single crop, managed, starch only) 2,500 gallons per acre
(in sewage, including cellulose) 10,000 + gallons per acre
sorghum (including cellulose) 3,500 gallons per acre
nipa palms 2,140
cassava(u.s.) 1,662-2045 gallons per acre
cassava (brazil) 585-1440
cattails wild 1,075 gallons per acre
fodder beets 940 gallons per acre
sugarcane 900 gallons per acre
buffalo gourd 900 gallons per acre
jerusalem artichokes 550-750 gallons per acre
thats just the top ten
for more
see page 79 in “alcohol can be a gas!” by david blume
also
quick question
what happens when these batteries are no longer useable?
-concerned highschooler
Plug-in hybrid models are on the way, likely to debut in the next few years. Current hybrid models would serve most peoples current needs fantastically. I made the switch to an 07 Civic Hybrid and couldn’t be happier with my decision.
Hybrid batteries are recyclable – the auto manufacturer’s will actually buy them back. So all the nonsense of millions of batteries sitting in landfills is absurd.
Ethanol doesn’t make sense today. Might it in the future? Who knows. But paying more money to get worse fuel economy ( thus paying even *more* money ) is a bad deal. Hybrids are the way to go, at least with the current technology. Plug-in hybrids will simply further that cause.
The estimate that a vehicle will travel 25% less miles on ethanol is based on the difference in the amount of energy per gallon, but does not take into consideration that ethanol burns more effectively. The actual mileage will vary. Some vehicles get MORE miles out of ethanol than they do gasoline. Check out “Alcohol can be a gas!” by David Blume.
I used E85 in a flexfuel car myself and didn’t notice any difference in mileage at all and that car had a readout that gave you the current mileage you were getting.
People keep repeating the same line that cars get less mileage on E85. The fact is that some cars get a little less, some cars get about the same and a few get more. If you have a flexfuel car, try a tank and keep track of your mileage. You may be one of the lucky ones that get MORE mileage and save money at the pump too.
Wow, now buying a car is like playing the lottery; I might be one of the lucky ones to get better gas millage lol. I think I would buy a hybrid and know I will be getting better milage and know I will save money at the pump. I live in Texas(lots of crops and lots of space to grow crops) I never seen an ethonal gas pump. At this point in time it is unrealistic to buy a ethonal car.
Why waste time with ethonal? Its cleaner than fossil fuels but not much. Why spend billions of dollars to convert millons of gas stations to ethonal? Its not worth it when there is a clear alternative.
With the convertion to hybrid auto makers will be finding ways for the hybrid to consume less ans less gas and relieing on advancements made with battery technology.
So WHY WASTE TIME WITH ETHONAL?
Oh my response to- the whole world is using ethanol why are we not. If the whole world was jumping off a bridge to a mangled bloody death would you?
Just because Brazil does it that must make it right. Do the brazilians complain about ethonal prices? yep!
Come on lets get real land is money (ask japan) As pop goes up so does land value why waste it on fuel when there is an alternative.
With hybrid the knoledge gained leads to all electric- 99.9% clean.
With ethonal… your stuck with ummmm… ethonal. just like we are stuck with gas.
Why waste time with ethanol? Well, at some point in the future we will probably solve the battery problem and be using plug-in hybrids and fully electric cars. Everyone will be able to recharge at night using off-peak electric production. My guess is sometime within 30 years every new car will be a hybrid or fully electric.
In the meantime, we have a 1% margin between the volume of oil we can pump and what we are using. Almost anything that disrupts supply or increases demand can cause an oil price spike. We nearly saw $100 oil recently and may see $100 oil soon.
A short term solution to replace a few percentage points of that oil will help stabilize oil prices. Ethanol can be that solution today. You might not be able to buy ethanol in Texas today and that’s ok, because the gasoline someone doesn’t buy in Indianna will be available for you to purchase in Texas.
We don’t need to replace oil today. We just need to slightly reduce demand so that oil prices can settle down a bit and every little issue doesn’t result in all-time high oil prices.
Plus, maybe they won’t find an answer to the battery problem. Maybe we will need ethanol to play a larger role than we think. If that happens, we will be better off to have a base of production and experienced businesses that can rapidly grow capacity.
It doesn’t hurt anything in the short or long run to use ethanol. In the short run, it helps with several issues and it may be what we need in the long run.
Theman,
87% of our corn crop goes to feed cattle. 70% of the corn is starch that the cattle don’t digest. The cattle digest the 30% that is fat and protein. When making ethanol the starch is used up, not the protein and fats.
We still use the land to grow the corn for cattle feed, the starch just doesn’t get wasted.
The battery problem is already solved. Tesla motors has made a full electric car that can achieve a 250 mile range. Plus the recharge time has been reduced thanks in part to the lithium batteries.
Because of the demand of corn prices has to be raised on milk/dairy products, and eggs. $4.50 for a gallon of milk? $2.45 for a quart of milk? Is that really a short term solution? Why not buy a hybrid and use less gasoline than switching over to another fuel source which is not available in our state yet. To me it doesn’t make sense.
I personally would not be intrested in paying for ethanol to get the same mileage…. and also having to pay more for the stuff I eat just because I want to use a renewable energy source. If any renewable resource that I would use would be hydrogen. Hydrogen is promising, hydrogen cars will already be available in 2008 from the honda clarity, bmw 7series. Although they are for lease only right now I’d rather wait for them to available for an average consumer than to have a quick fix. Plus H-ICE is another option, it’s much more cleaner to run hydrogen than ehtanol.
NSX-R,
Sadly, that car is not available in large volumes or for a price that the average US household can afford.
Oil is going up fast, gasoline is going up fast. Yes, food prices are rising, partly because of a massive drought in Australia and other regions of the world and partly because of higher grain prices, but the largest driver of rising food costs is China and India whose populations are beginning to buy meat and milk.
Ethanol isn’t the problem. It isn’t the entire solution either, but it has a role as part of the solution, at least in the short run.
Patrick Kilhoffer
I already stated that point eariler about the availablity of hydrogen powered cars. Plus I haven’t seen ethanol station around here either. So the only option now is hybrid, why wait for ehtanol when hybrids are more accessable.
My point about the hydrogen powered cars is they are here, it’s not some ideal concept or something far in the future. They are proven to be more effeicent than any flexfuel cars. These hydrogen cars like the Honda Clarity. The weight of the Clarity has been reduced by 40% and the drivetrain has been reduced by 45% offering more cabin room. In college I did a speech on hydrogen powered cars. Surprising a lot of them did not know that they are in production. Yes they are available to lease only, just like hybrids they will soon be able to be pruchased.
As far as hybrids are concerned people were saying that about hybrids when they first came out that it would take years. But now they are becoming trend now, in fact I’ve seen more hybrids than flexfuel cars so far.
Although this year crops are in higher demand than ever but some of it is due to the demand for ethanol. Especially here in Texas, some reports have been done about this and that ethanol is one of the causes for price increase on corn. I’m not saying that ethanol is fully responsible but it does drive the costs of corn.
Why should I as a consumer get a flex fuel car when Hondas and Toyotas can offer better effieciency with a hybrid. Which is about a few thousand dollar difference between a hybrid and a gasoline powered car.
So why not hybrids, they also help reduce the emissions in the air and save at the pump. Plus more hybrid models are on the way.
My opinion of the whole ehtanol vs. hybrids is domestic car companies have no intrests in hybrids, for one it’s fuel efficency doesn’t out weigh the cost. Which people are not willing to pay the price that they are offering. Secondly it’s a cheaper way for domestic car companies to help push ethanol cars to compete against import cars. Also it seems in the flexfuel lineup that only the big trucks and suv’s and a few mid sized cars like the impala, avenger. But not compacts or sub compact cars. I believe that hydrids are more effecient and will save you more in long run. Plus Honda’s and Toyotas are better quaility vehicles anyway.
So why not hybrids?
NSX-R,
I fully support hybrids. I thought I made that clear, maybe not. A plug in hybrid reduces liquid fuel usage by ~80%. Ethanol can supply the remaining 20%. In reality, it will be a combination of gasoline, E10, E20, E85 and E100 providing the majority of the fuel until plug in hybrids become more common. Once you only have to provide 20% of the total fuel usage, everything gets easier and cheaper, including hydrogen.
Personally I don’t think hydrogen will ever get common. I think what will end up happening is that plug in hybrids and regular hybrids will reduce gasoline usage to the point that oil prices fall enough that there isn’t a compelling reason to switch to anything else.
And without a compelling reason to change, we will continue using gasoline and gasoline/ethanol blends.
I appreicate you clearing that up for me.
I understand what you are saying about hybrids, but we are still relying on fossil fuels though. I just believe hybrids will serve the purpose of reducing our dependancy on fossil fuels.
I can see hydrogen powered cars, or fuel cell/ electric cars becoming more appealing once the prices reach consumers. A zero emissions, pure renewable resource. I do realize that it will take time, I’m willing to wait.
I think that ethanol will work better than gasonline and burn cleaner if the vehicle’s computer is set to get better comsumption rates. The IRL and Formula 1 runs on ethanol at 250 mph with a 20 gallon tank and get pretty good mpg for the speeds they are running. Adjust the vehicle’s computer and combine the smart engine technology and I bet you would be really surprised at how good the gas mileage turns out to be. But then again that would completely shut the oil industry down and that is a huge problem.
Is the gas mileage simply “good for ethanol” or is it actually good? As in on-par with regular old petrol? If it’s not, then I still fail to see the usefulness.
In the racing world, I guess ethanol may have a place… if only for the higher octane rating. Traditionally leaded racing fuel is used. Since lead is highly toxic, I can see the benefits of burning corn.
I agree, ethanol would benefit better for the IRL or any other high performance racing without the harmful emissions. But as for the consumer level, I don’t think it’s worth it.
Ethanol can deliver better mileage than gasoline if the engine is designed for ethanol. My Toyota gets the same mileage on E30 as on straight gasoline, but worse mileage on E85, so I don’t drive on just E85.
The most important thing that E85 is giving us is…cars that run on E85. Now that the demand is there, GM and other companies are working on better ways to make ethanol in high volumes from waste materials. GM is projecting they will be able to sell E100 for $2.00 a gallon and make a profit within 3 years.
Hydrogen has it’s place as well eventually. It’s a way to store electricity from excess wind production. Hydrogen powered cars are one way to use that hydrogen, assuming they can solve the storage issues.
Companies invest the money to solve problems when they think it will be profitable to do so.
Now that there are cars running on E85 and corn is expensive, an alternative will be developed. It never made sense to develope an alternative to gasoline before. Now it does. Give them 5-10 years and the problem will be solved.
May 20th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
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May 20th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
[...] having problems deciding upon is what type of efficiency is it going to take to save our planet. At Houston Cars, Leroy Brown outlines a few of pros & cons of Ethanol vs. Hybrid. His arguments are leaning [...]
Sep 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am
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